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(SMTP) 550 - not authenticated .. fair enough, but *no* indication from Pegasus ... so how do you know ?

Last post 01-24-2009, 6:40 by Thomas R. Stephenson. 5 replies.
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  •  01-21-2009, 2:33

    • bday is not online. Last active: 01-26-2009, 13:12 bday
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    (SMTP) 550 - not authenticated .. fair enough, but *no* indication from Pegasus ... so how do you know ?

    G'day All

    re:  (Pegasus 4.41)

    (SMTP).. ISP msg says..  550 - not authenticated    .....OK fair enough,

    but *why* is there *no* indication from Pegasus that this has occurred ?

       !!!  So how do you know it had an error. and the email was not, in fact, sent !!!

     

     

    Initially, this occurred because I sent an email not realising my new ISP needed SMTP authorisation... (Mea culpa!)

    But since Pegasus said the mail was "sent" ..  it resulted in a lot of heartache & accusations,

    trying to detemine who was right in the chain of events.

    ...With each party asserting their version of events was right - thus the other must be at fault !

    Fortunately, "fisticuffs"  was avoided !!!  ...but it was heading that way! :-)))

     

    I have since proven that Pegasus does *not* issue a warning message -

    By first opening an a/c at Gmail and then sending an email via Pegasus - to myself at Gmail,

    ... *** with the SMTP authorisation deliberately turned off (temporarily) *** 

    I watched the whole process very carefully ...  

    Pegasus did not barf at all and did indeed say the email was "sent".

     

    I then scratched around in the various files, hoping to find a proper system or error log of the "550 error"...

    I found a file "6TM4EKU5.CNM"   which did indeed, contain the 550 error issued by the ISP's mail program.

    But how would I know I should look there?  (And this one looks like a work file of some sort anyway).

     

    More to the point... How can I ensure that serious errors such as this are notified to me in some way, please?

    And it would be a very good idea, too, for Pegasus to *not* report it was sent, when it clearly wasn't.

    NB: Suggesting that it *was* sent (as far as the ISP) ... is not amusing!

     

    BTW, is there a "proper" log file which records this sort of thing?  I couldn't find one .. but that might be me.

    Possibly I have some combination of settings which precludes me from seeing such messages. 

    If so, **please** advise what I need to change.  

     

    This "failure" worries me .  I have no idea, now, of how many other mails did not get sent as intended.

     

    BTW.. My ISP's view is that if Pegasus does not report such an error to the user,

    it is in violation of some RFC -  tho' I've forgotten which number was specifed.

    It is a difficult point to refute!

     

    Please help.  I do like Pegasus but I see this as a major failure and it bothers me!.

    I cannot see any sense in not ensuring the user is immediately aware that such a

    serious error has occurred.

     

    At this pont, I can easily imagine someone suggesting that if I emailed say 5000 people,

    with each email resulting in an error, would I then want to be notified, individually,

    of every one?      A valid point and clearly one would not like that. 

    But in such an extreme case, the sane thing to do is to log all the errors to a file

    and after the last one was dealt with, advise the user (instead of saying message sent)

    that...  "At least 1 serious error has occurred. Please review error(s) in file xxxxxxxx"

    Surely that would be the smart way to handle such things?

     

    Many Thanks,

    Barry Day

    Filed under: ,
  •  01-21-2009, 6:05

    Re: (SMTP) 550 - not authenticated .. fair enough, but *no* indication from Pegasus ... so how do you know ?

    (SMTP).. ISP msg says..  550 - not authenticated    .....OK fair enough,

    but *why* is there *no* indication from Pegasus that this has occurred ?

    !!!  So how do you know it had an error. and the email was not, in fact, sent !!!

    When you send the message to the queue with the internal mail there will be no error message at that time. However when you try to send the mail you should get a error message back saying the message failed and why it failed.  This works essentially the same way when sending via the Mercury queue.

    I then scratched around in the various files, hoping to find a proper system or error log of the "550 error"...

    I found a file "6TM4EKU5.CNM"   which did indeed, contain the 550 error issued by the ISP's mail program.

    But how would I know I should look there?  (And this one looks like a work file of some sort anyway).
    It should have come back to your new mail folder as a bounce message from the ISP.  The CNM file is in fact a message file in the users new mail directory and shows up in the users new mail folder.

    At this pont, I can easily imagine someone suggesting that if I emailed say 5000 people,

    with each email resulting in an error, would I then want to be notified, individually,

    of every one?      A valid point and clearly one would not like that. 

    But in such an extreme case, the sane thing to do is to log all the errors to a file

    and after the last one was dealt with, advise the user (instead of saying message sent)

    that...  "At least 1 serious error has occurred. Please review error(s) in file xxxxxxxx"

    Surely that would be the smart way to handle such things?

    You in fact should get an error message back with each failed message.  For example if you sent 5000 separate messages and each contained one bad email address you would get back 5000 bounce messages.

     


    Thomas R. Stephenson
    San Jose, California
    Member of Pegasus Mail Support Team

    I do not answer private messages from the forum. If you want to contact me use email to techsupp@tstephenson.com.
  •  01-21-2009, 8:14

    • bday is not online. Last active: 01-26-2009, 13:12 bday
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    Re: (SMTP) 550 - not authenticated .. fair enough, but *no* indication from Pegasus ... so how do you know ?

    G'day Thomas

    Thanks for the reply.

    However, what you say *should * happen, didn't happen.

    I think there's an option somewhere that lets you tell Pegasus to not queue the mail but to send it immediately.  I'm sure I have that. ON.   Thus, the queuing concept you mention either doesn't happen - or the email is immediately despatched if it does lodge in the queue briefly.  

    From the user's perspectve, it happens immediately and a "message sent" appears in the status very shorty after ... but that's all.  Not a word about the error ... which is much more important!

    I hope this can be resolved ... it seems to me so far, to be a serious 'hole'.

    Cheers

    Barry

  •  01-21-2009, 17:05

    Re: (SMTP) 550 - not authenticated .. fair enough, but *no* indication from Pegasus ... so how do you know ?

    bday:

    G'day Thomas

    Thanks for the reply.

    However, what you say *should * happen, didn't happen.

    Not sure it did not happen since you said you saw a new mail message (*.cnm file) talking about the error. Quite possibly you have some sort of filter moving these messages to someplace else. I would really look at your system to ensure that there is not something betwen WinPMail and the outside world (anti-virus/spam software comes to mind) affecting the receipt of the bounce messages.

    I think there's an option somewhere that lets you tell Pegasus to not queue the mail but to send it immediately.  I'm sure I have that. ON.   Thus, the queuing concept you mention either doesn't happen - or the email is immediately despatched if it does lodge in the queue briefly.  

    No difference.  Sending immediately is no different than queuing and then sending from the point of view of the system.  

    From the user's perspectve, it happens immediately and a "message sent" appears in the status very shorty after ... but that's all.  Not a word about the error ... which is much more important!

    Message sent means the message was successfully sent to the LAN or the built-in mailer queue.  It does not mean that the SMTP part of the sending operation was even started. Even when you have set to send immediately it only means that the built-in mailer is going to start a client/server connection to the relay host to put the mail in the SMTP system and that's a long way from being successfully delivered. If the actual sending fails you will get a bounce message back from the server. 

    I hope this can be resolved ... it seems to me so far, to be a serious 'hole'.

    Still not sure what hole you are talking about.  The sending of the mail to the queue or even the SMTP relay host does not mean that the mail was successfully delivered to the recipients of the message.  It only means that the mail was passed from the mail client to the SMTP mail system.  If this fails for any reason, the SMTP system is required to send a message back to the sender telling them it failed and way it failed.

    Cheers

    Barry


    Thomas R. Stephenson
    San Jose, California
    Member of Pegasus Mail Support Team

    I do not answer private messages from the forum. If you want to contact me use email to techsupp@tstephenson.com.
  •  01-24-2009, 2:31

    • bday is not online. Last active: 01-26-2009, 13:12 bday
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    Re: (SMTP) 550 - not authenticated .. fair enough, but *no* indication from Pegasus ... so how do you know ?

     

    Thanks for the reply, however in answer to the points you raised ...

    What did not happen was.... that you said I *should* be notified - but I was *not* notified.

    Nor was there a bounce message in my inbox (or anywhere I would normally find one).

    Yes the .CNM file exists ... I found it by pure chance/diligence ... I did *not* say I saw a new message.  I clearly said I located the .CNM file whilst scratching around afterwards.

    You said that "message sent" (which appears in the status bar, and is the *only* information about the operation which is returned to the user)  .. just refers to placing the email in the send queue...  and has no bearing on the SMTP aspect.    I have to say, what on earth is the use of that information to the user?      In any event, it is thereby an improper message.  It should clearly say "message placed in queue for sending" or something very similar.

    Clearly the user is (mis)led to believe that the mail was sent (to the ISPs mailer, of course) always bearing in mind that it could still bounce for other reasons such as an undeliverable address & whatnot. 

    The point here, **beyond question** - is that Pegasus is informed *immediately* by the ISP that the mail is going nowhere and Pegasus does *not*  ensure that the user is made aware of that serious fact.       How much clearer can I be?

    Surely you can see how serious/important this is?

    And - tho' I thought it was plainly obvious - that is the "hole" I've been referring to.

    I summarise:

    - there is *no*  advice of any kind from Pegasus, that this has occurred. Yet Pegasus was aware *immediately* that the email would not be sent anywhere.

    - there is *no* bounce message

    - The user is left believing  (incorrectly) that the mail has been sent - meaning of course, to the ISP and beyond.

    Finally. This cannot be palmed-off to the ISP ...   Pegasus has been properly informed by the ISP that the email is unacceptable for sending.  It is clearly the duty of  Pegasus - and no-one else - to correctly inform the user that the email was faulty & will not proceed further.  Together with the reason (that the ISP correctly gave), for that.

    Why are you "fighting" this so???   Surely it is glaringly obvious the user is left misinformed ... Is that the state you want him/her to be left in?

    I have to say I am very disappointed in the way this is progressing.  No reasonably sane person would consider this as not being... (a) serious &  (b) a bug.

    Barry Day

  •  01-24-2009, 6:40

    Re: (SMTP) 550 - not authenticated .. fair enough, but *no* indication from Pegasus ... so how do you know ?

    bday:
    Thanks for the reply, however in answer to the points you raised ...

    What did not happen was.... that you said I *should* be notified - but I was *not* notified.

    Nor was there a bounce message in my inbox (or anywhere I would normally find one).

    Does not mean that was was not one sent, it just means that for some reason it did not get to or stay in your inbox.  There are all sort of reasons way a new mail message may go astray through filtering or improper setup where the MAIL FROM address is incorrect.

    Yes the .CNM file exists ... I found it by pure chance/diligence ... I did *not* say I saw a new message.  I clearly said I located the .CNM file whilst scratching around afterwards.

    A CNM file is a new mail message. If it was not located in your new mail directory there are any number of ways that can happen.

    You said that "message sent" (which appears in the status bar, and is the *only* information about the operation which is returned to the user)  .. just refers to placing the email in the send queue...  and has no bearing on the SMTP aspect.    I have to say, what on earth is the use of that information to the user?      In any event, it is thereby an improper message.  It should clearly say "message placed in queue for sending" or something very similar.

    Clearly the user is (mis)led to believe that the mail was sent (to the ISPs mailer, of course) always bearing in mind that it could still bounce for other reasons such as an undeliverable address & whatnot. 

    The point here, **beyond question** - is that Pegasus is informed *immediately* by the ISP that the mail is going nowhere and Pegasus does *not*  ensure that the user is made aware of that serious fact.       How much clearer can I be?

    I have no idea why you have a problem.  Pegasus Mail is a mail system with a mail client to read and create mail and a separate mail system based on queues.  There are all sorts of ways the the mail can be actually sent to the SMTP system; the Mercury Netware queue, the Mercury/32 User Defined Gateway or the built-in mail user agent.   In all cases the when you hit send in the editor you are sending the mail message to one of these queues.  With the mail gets to the queue the Pegasus Mail lets you know is was successfully sent to the queue. 

    When using the built in mailer you will see the mail being actualy sent to the SMTP host on the bottom of the screen and it shows the progress of the sending.  When you have set Pegasus Mail to send immediately all that means is the mail is sent to the built-in mailer queue (HOME mail directory) and the sending system is immediately triggered.

    Surely you can see how serious/important this is?

    No I do not.  

    And - tho' I thought it was plainly obvious - that is the "hole" I've been referring to.

    I summarise:

    - there is *no*  advice of any kind from Pegasus, that this has occurred. Yet Pegasus was aware *immediately* that the email would not be sent anywhere.

    Correct, there was a email address that was bad but the form was correct.  

    - there is *no* bounce message

    That one I disagree.  You may not have seen it but when the SMTP hosrt bounces a message is sends it back the the sendere.  Now if you are using a bad address for sending (i.e.the SMTP MAIL FROM: address) then the sending server may send it back to the wrong address but there will be a bopunce message.

    - The user is left believing  (incorrectly) that the mail has been sent - meaning of course, to the ISP and beyond.

    I'm not so sure about that.  The sender must have seen the message going to the SMTP host and they know it got that far at least. 

    Finally. This cannot be palmed-off to the ISP ...   Pegasus has been properly informed by the ISP that the email is unacceptable for sending.  It is clearly the duty of  Pegasus - and no-one else - to correctly inform the user that the email was faulty & will not proceed further.  Together with the reason (that the ISP correctly gave), for that.

    No, the SMTP host bounced the mail back to the sender.  If you are using a normal POP3 system that means it goes to your POP3 mailbox.  This assumes it does not fail when sending to the SMTP host.  In this case there will be an error messge with the connection to the SMTP host.

    Why are you "fighting" this so???   Surely it is glaringly obvious the user is left misinformed ... Is that the state you want him/her to be left in?

    I disagree.  There are thousands of Pegasus Mail users that do not find this to be a problem at all.  In the past 15 or so years I belive you are the second one to even bring this up.

    I have to say I am very disappointed in the way this is progressing.  No reasonably sane person would consider this as not being... (a) serious &  (b) a bug.

    It's neither serious or a bug.  Pegasus Mail is operating IAW the RFCs in the sending of the mail.  If it fails there will either be an immediate error message at the time of sending or a bounce message from the SMTP host. Obviously we are not communication so I'll leave this for others to handle.

    Barry Day


    Thomas R. Stephenson
    San Jose, California
    Member of Pegasus Mail Support Team

    I do not answer private messages from the forum. If you want to contact me use email to techsupp@tstephenson.com.
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