[quote user="Nikolas"]

"Debian looks however you want it to look. As I said, if you can't configure it, use Ubuntu."

True, but why bother when Ubuntu has already got it installed by default?

[/quote]Because you won't have to put up with what Ubuntu calls a 'stable' release, and then reinstall every six months.

Setting a wallpaper, icon & window theme is hardly a taxing endeavor.

[quote]"Maybe you should stop telling people how great you are, that's probably why people respond to you in such a fashion."

I haven't stated 'I am so great' anywhere on this forum.. so this just tells me you suffer an inferiority complex.

[/quote]...yeah...ok.

[quote]"If you had any knowledge of linux you would recognize the idiocy of that statement."

Really? Why is that?

[/quote]Try dropping a kernel from say Fedora into your Ubuntu install and see what happens.

There are some fairly major differences between distro's in how they modify the vanilla kernels, not to mention toolchains, packaging mechanisms, dependency tracking, filesystem types and organisation, as well as build guidelines and overall philosophy.

[quote]"I thought you were ranting about the optional html renderer in a mail CLIENT. What has that got to do with 'a server target market'."

The subject still is MERCURY/PMAIL, but your post failed to mention them, instead, floated around the fact that you spend your Saturday nights in bed analyzing peoples edited posts on an internet forums. Also, like I stated: I believe where there is PMAIL there is MERCURY, hence why I am discussing both of them.

[/quote]For starters it was Sunday morning here :)

The subject purports to be "Feedback" in the "Pegasus Mail Suggestions" subforum, so I still fail to see the relevance of your point about "server target market" in this context.

If you actually read the announcement here, idw clearly explains the reasons for the (optional) extension, why he chose IE, the addressing of security concerns, AND the opinion that other engines could also be used. (Maybe it will happen if someone wants to get off their arse and do the

work, rather than act like an ignorant tit and just bitch about it...)

The 'open source' model you are touting so vociferously, is not just about "free stuff", but more about the open collaboration and sharing of knowledge and effort for the benefit of all.

You don't do yourself or your argument (you did have one didn't you?) any favours by pissing and moaning when someone else serves the wrong flavor of "free stuff" to you.

This message will most likely be my final message on this board. It is feedback in regards to 'Pegasus Mail and Mercury Developer News'

I was happy whilst reading the news until I came accross this:

'Finally, Michael in der Wiesche has developed a new HTML renderer for Pegasus Mail that uses the rendering power of Internet Explorer to produce top-class HTML displays.'

It is in my opinion that David Harriss has lost touch. How can the rendering 'power' of Internet Explorer produce top-class HTML? Internet Explorer 8 can only pass 20% of the Acid3 test!! and Internet Explorer 9 (which the beta does get 95%) will not run on XP, meaning that anyone on XP (majority of Windows users) will be having to use a patheticly rendered Internet Explorer 6, 7 or 8 backend.. Also, what a wonderful way to invite viruses into the computer using Internet Explorer via Pmail.

Making Pmail depend even further on the roots of the Microsoft Windows operating system rules out (unless allot of work is done) a native binary on another operating system.

Windows is dying. Linux is the future. Why on Earth the path set out is being taken I scratch my head!

What are others views on this?

Good bye.

Nikolas,

I am one who is using Michael's IE - Renderer for quite some time now (and tested it) and not because I love the Internet Explorer (actually I normally do not use it for the reason you mentioned) but because the current default renderer produced permanent complete crashes of PM with certain mal formatted emails I received and which I needed to receive regularly. So what to do? Michael's adaptation of the IE renderer solved that problem for me and so far, it does the job quite well ...

I personally also find it very concerning that emails can actually crash my PM with the current default renderer! Could that not also, apart from being very annoying, be a security risk? Maybe someone will one day adapt Gecko (Mozilla) to do the job. I am not sure whether that would be possible also licence wise?

What I like from the suggested solution for the next version is that you can actually choose. 

Cheers

Thomas-M.

I think it is a very bad idea to tie Pmail into an operating system. Using the operating system to render the e-mail exposes a direct attack point for malicious code.

Security vulnerabilities for Microsoft Windows are found on a weekly basis and users need to wait until the second Tuesday for every month for a security update!

I don't see why the Gecko engine cannot be used?! Its open sourced, faster, safer and its license would permit it being used in another applications free.

Debian took advantage of this by folking Firefox into Iceweasal for the Debian operating system.

Ties with Windows exclusive elements need to be broken at all costs. Stop associating with Windows registry and other core components.

Also, MERCURY seriously needs to come out for Unix. MERCURY is a server orientated application. 80% of the worlds servers are Unix based.

Linux is also going viral. In a year and a half it will be on pair with Mac.

Also, the more Pmail is written by David, the more it can open source it. Open source is becoming the new thing. The only reason I haven't changed to an open source product is because I haven't had a need for a new SMTP server and client. I would like webmail interface access to my e-mail in the not distant future and there are open sourced products out there that can offer me this. I would like to stay with Pmail, but if the application doesn't keep up with he times, then its ciao ciao.

Its 2010. There is nothing superior about Pmail in this day and age.. A great product overall and I like it allot (to the point where I continue to use it in Linux via WINE), so it should be open sourced. David is happy to accept contribution to Pmail and he states he doesn't have the time like he use to for Pmail anymore, so why not open source it? I know their are elements in Pmail that prevent this, so lets get rid of them and making is worse by using Microsoft Windows components.

If Pmail and MERCURY became open sourced, the contribution in man power would accelerate the Pmail project by years.

Windows is a noob product that is dying. The today era of tallent is in Linux.

Windows is useless for servers, seriously... 80% of servers are Linux for a reason.

Oh, and a suggestion I have wanted to see in my mail server that I've seen Microsoft create with their Hotmail; a one-time password, for use at pubic computers.

This is why I have never allowed remote access into my mail, but a one time password would protect me from local keyloggers! If this was to be implimented, I'm sure it would become something on the 'to do list' and by the time its been implemented, I will have left Pmail/MERCURY, on the other hand, again if Pmail/MERCURY was open sourced, a feature such as this could be implimented in less than a month by the community.

Thomas

   I would really like to see the html messages that are crashing Pegasus Mail. Please send one or more to irelam@telus.net.  I see that you don't mention version levels for Pegasus Mail and Bearhtml?

I say this because I have not received any crash notifications in months, and so I am wondering what is going on. 

Regards

        Martin

Thomas,

    As there is no executable code allowed, the only types of html crashes are syntax errors, which are trapped by Bearhtml.

Martin

[quote user="Nikolas"]I think it is a very bad idea to tie Pmail into an operating system. Using the operating system to render the e-mail exposes a direct attack point for malicious code.[/quote]

I'd really be interested in an application which can be run on an OS without using its interfaces (except for virtual machines, maybe)? And providing an optional renderer module ties Pegasus Mail to absolutely nothing, not to mention that David Harris' migration to using MS VC as his developer tool ties Pegasus Mail a lot more to Windows than anything else.

[quote user="Nikolas"]Security vulnerabilities for Microsoft Windows are found on a weekly basis and users need to wait until the second Tuesday for every month for a security update![/quote]

Well, this may be much better than depending on arbitrary patch days provided by other vendors/developers (which successively is adopted by other vendors as well, recently Adobe, e.g.): At least you know its going to come and the public pressure on Microsoft is likely to be rather intense exactly because it's in widespread use (which, BTW, is one of the reasons why MS applications are such a welcome target for malware attacks).

[quote user="Nikolas"]I don't see why the Gecko engine cannot be used?! Its open sourced, faster, safer and its license would permit it being used in another applications free.[/quote]

So where's the developer who's doing it? I'm not a contract worker of David, I'm doing this completely on a voluntary basis in my spare time, everyone else could do with other rendering engines as well. And, if you are interested in my reasons please read this post.

[quote user="Nikolas"]Also, the more Pmail is written by David, the more it can open source it. Open source is becoming the new thing.[/quote]

You're fighting ghosts here as I already wrote above: An external renderer doesn't tie Pegasus Mail to anything. And given past experiences with suggestions about going open source this is not going to happen anytime soon.

[quote user="Nikolas"]I would like to stay with Pmail, but if the application doesn't keep up with he times, then its ciao ciao.[/quote]

Which is one of the reasons for providing another renderer, see my post (and don't let us get into arguments about using HTML in emails, it's just a matter of fact and we have to deal with it now, not anytime in the future).

[quote user="Nikolas"]David is happy to accept contribution to Pmail and he states he doesn't have the time like he use to for Pmail anymore, so why not open source it? I know there are elements in Pmail that prevent this, so lets get rid of them and making is worse by using Microsoft Windows components.[/quote]

One of these "elements" is exactly the renderer/editor - with regard to this you could even say that my renderer provides another step for becoming independent of third party tools (except for Windows itself, of course) ...

[quote user="Nikolas"]Windows is a noob product that is dying. The today era of tallent is in Linux.[/quote]

You're dreaming, aren't you (there's nothing wrong with doing so ...)?

[quote user="Nikolas"]Windows is useless for servers, seriously... 80% of servers are Linux for a reason.[/quote]

Don't mix up things, Mercury may be a different issue and probably easier to migrate to other OSs (less need for an elaborated UI).

"Well, this may be much better than depending on arbitrary patch days provided by other vendors/developers (which successively is adopted by other vendors as well, recently Adobe, e.g.): At least you know its going to come and the public pressure on Microsoft is likely to be rather intense exactly because it's in widespread use (which, BTW, is one of the reasons why MS applications are such a welcome target for malware attacks)"

With the source code open, a wait would not have to be needed. The Pmail community could fix an issue ourselves.

As for the public pressure on Microsoft.. Microsoft don't listen to the public.

Microsoft applications are a welcome target because they are so hopelessly coded. As I mentioned, Unix holds 80% of the server marketshare, yet its still the Windows servers that get owned the most.

"So where's the developer who's doing it? I'm not a contract worker of David, I'm doing this completely on a voluntary basis in my spare time, everyone else could do with other rendering engines as well. And, if you are interested in my reasons please read this post."

Well, there are no developers doing it because the applications are closed source. Why would you choose Internet Explorer but? Internet Explorer is the biggest peice of shit 'browser' on the planet. It doesn't support web standards.

"You're fighting ghosts here as I already wrote above: An external renderer doesn't tie Pegasus Mail to anything. And given past experiences with suggestions about going open source this is not going to happen anytime soon."

Well its not going to be an external rendered. Is the e-mail going to open up in an Internet Explorer window? No, its going to be displayed with an 'inline' Internet Explorer window.

"One of these "elements" is exactly the renderer/editor - with regard to this you could even say that my renderer provides another step for becoming independent of third party tools (except for Windows itself, of course) ..."

But its not your renderer. Your simply using the Internet Explorer engine that is built into Windows to display an e-mail.. Change Internet settings in Control Panel and thoughs settings will effect the e-mail being rendered because the e-mail is being rendered in Internet Explorer.

"You're dreaming, aren't you"

No, I'm not dreaming. Majority of people that run servers use Unix and more continue to move over to it. Windows is a dying operating system.

"Don't mix up things, Mercury may be a different issue and probably easier to migrate to other OSs (less need for an elaborated UI)."

I'm talking about MERCURY in this thread because people that use PMAIL probably use MERCURY aswell.

[quote user="Nikolas"]As for the public pressure on Microsoft.. Microsoft don't listen to the public.[/quote]

Not true, they did even provided patches off their regular patch day if public pressure was high enough - while holding back other ones for years.

[quote user="Nikolas"]As I mentioned, Unix holds 80% of the server marketshare, yet its still the Windows servers that get owned the most.[/quote]

You're mixing up things again.

[quote user="Nikolas"]Well, there are no developers doing it because the applications are closed source.[/quote]

If there was anyone really interested they wouldn't have to wait for open source. It's simply lack of interest, sorry ...

[quote user="Nikolas"]It doesn't support web standards.[/quote]

I'm not argueing against this although it's going to change.

[quote user="Nikolas"]Well its not going to be an external rendered.[/quote]

I bet you know: It's an external library which can be uninstalled without breaking anything in Pegasus Mail.

And why would being sophistic help us any further? Yes, I'm reusing IE's rendering machine like I would any other if I tried.

[quote user="Nikolas"]No, I'm not dreaming. Majority of people that run servers use Unix and more continue to move over to it.[/quote]

Are we talking about an HTML renderer for Pegasus Mail?

[quote user="Nikolas"]I'm talking about MERCURY in this thread because people that use PMAIL probably use MERCURY aswell.[/quote]

I don't ...

"You're mixing up things again."

I'm not mixing anything up. It is true Unix holds 80% of the worlds server market share and that figure continues to rise. MERCURY/PMAIL is a server application, it should be ported to Unix if it is to survive and be practical in today's era. Making PMAIL dig its claws into the Windows operating system is one giant step away from this happening.

Goto other websites of SMTP-mail clients that runs on Unix and you will see the forums flourish... Yet MERCURY/PMAIL - the oldest running applications; the forums are dead in comparison.. Why? Because nearly no one runs a Windows server.

"Are we talking about an HTML renderer for Pegasus Mail?"

At the end of the day we are discussing the implementation of the worlds worst browser - the worlds non-standard compliant browser; the worlds most dangerous browser, into PMAIL.

[quote user="Nikolas"]MERCURY/PMAIL is a server application[/quote]

Ok, let's assume this is true (which I really doubt with regard to Pegasus Mail): Why would people use a native Windows application (well, more a native Netware application in the past) in such an environment if not because most desktops run Windows even if most servers run ix-flavours? And I've read several complaints about lacking Windows server/network integration ... But once again: An external renderer module doesn't tie Pegasus Mail to anything unless David Harris would want it to do so (which isn't the case, and he didn't even ask for providing such a module) ...

What about facts: Firefox most vulnerable browser, Safari close second and: "Popular vendors including Sun, IBM, and Apache continue to be among the top 10 most vulnerable Web applications named."  Of course, statistics are always questionable for lots of reasons.

And with regard to the rendering quality it's definitely better than the existing Pegasus Mail renderer with its extremely limited CSS support. And as you already mentioned in a previous post its standards compliance is going to improve soon. And I've taken care to disable all active content by default.

BTW: This post is written in Firefox and my sytem's default browser is Opera ever since it was published - just in case someone feels I'm promoting IE here ...

"Ok, let's assume this is true (which I really doubt with regard to Pegasus Mail): Why would people use a native Windows application (well, more a native Netware application in the past) in such an environment if not because most desktops run Windows even if most servers run ix-flavours?"

PMAIL is not a server application, but where there is MERCURY there is PMAIL. If I was not running MERCURY I definatly would not be running PMAIL and I can bet majority of the people are the same. Personally I am not even a big fan of PMAIL.. its cluttered like crazy, but I use it because it works fantastic with MERCURY, which I like.

"And I've read several complaints about lacking Windows server/network integration"

So we keep windows support. I'm not saying to ditch Windows support, but to not dig PMAIL's claws into Windows exclusive elements, this way PMAIL binary can be made for Unix more easily.

A fantastic web server I use - Abyss Web Server uses this model. Its out on everything, Unix, Windows, Mac, etc.. The entire program users its own configuration files, so all the developer needed to do was create a binary for the operating system he wanted it to run on.. PMAIL should be the same in my opinion, instead it goes and uses the Windows registry and things like that.

I'm not sure if you've heard iD Software? They use the OpenGL graphics API to render their game engines, hence why games which run on their engines come out on all sorts of platforms, where as games that use the DirectX API are stuck on Windows.. The same will basicly happen if PMAIL digs deeper into Windows by using its web page renderer.

"What about facts: Firefox most vulnerable browser, Safari close second and: "Popular vendors including Sun, IBM, and Apache continue to be among the top 10 most vulnerable Web applications named."

A single webpage is not enough to come to that conclusion. I am sure I too could find the page that concludes Firefox the safest, but a single page alone is not enough for a conclusion, unless there is scientific brake down of the test - which on the page you stated does not have.

"And with regard to the rendering quality it's definitely better than the existing Pegasus Mail renderer with its extremely limited CSS support. And as you already mentioned in a previous post its standards compliance is going to improve soon."

Well, Internet Explorer 8 only gets 20% on the Acid3 test, so all this work for a browser that can't even get a quater of the way on the Acid3 test is a waste of time for that reason alone. Internet Explorer 9, which is not even finished but does get 95% compliance, will not be released for WindowsXP - something that still holds over 50% of the marketshare and if I want to get Internet Explorer 9, I must also purchase a licence for a bloated, hopelessly designed and insecure operating system that treats me like a child whilst at the same time hogs 1GB+ of my memory. Pass.

[quote user="Nikolas"]PMAIL should be the same in my opinion, instead it goes and uses the Windows registry and things like that.[/quote]

Pegasus Mail itself does not depend on the Registry in any way unless for supporting OS-specific features (like MAPI) which it doesn't even do as good as it could be and hence requires some more supporting tools created by Martin Ireland and me - I guess it wouldn't run with WINE on Linux otherwise ...

[quote user="Nikolas"]The same will basicly happen if PMAIL digs deeper into Windows by using its web page renderer.[/quote]

This is nonsense but I'm not going to repeat myself another time here.

[quote user="Nikolas"]A single webpage is not enough to come to that conclusion. I am sure I too could find the page that concludes Firefox the safest[/quote]

Of course, I knew you would say this, but the conclusion is that nobody can really tell which one is the most vulnerable browser.

[quote user="Nikolas"]a bloated, hopelessly designed and insecure operating system that treats me like a child whilst at the same time hogs 1GB+ of my memory. Pass.[/quote]

Now this is kind of schizophrenic: You hate Windows and don't like Pegasus Mail - so you only use both because you're so fond of Mercury? Come on ...

If you are unable to tell which is the safest between Internet Explorer and Firefox, then you have lost touch.

What is so schizophrenic about claiming Windows being bloated, hopelessly designed and an insecure operating system that consumes 1GB+ of memory?

Your logged in as Administrator, the thing is cluttered and gimmicky and it requires 1GB just to run. My Ubuntu Linux idles at 200MB and is more capable than any Windows out there.

Anyway, I am telling you that your wasting your time using IE. PMAIL and MERCURY will continue to die out unless it is open sourced and brought out for Unix. Windows is a dying era for servers.. and im the not so distant future  desktops also.

I see you edited your post to remove your blunder about the registry...

If you are so opposed to bloat & gimmicks, why are you using Ubuntu?

Oh yes, it's the distro of choice for recent ex-Windows fanbois who have not yet figured out how to configure linux.

And as for abandoning the platform used by 90%+ of PC users in order to increase use of Pmail, what can I say, you must be a rocket scientist in your spare time.

I see you are under the table..

Why am I using Ubuntu? Because I like it.

No, I use Ubuntu because I like the theme that comes with it, where as other distros, such as Debian, resemble the look of Windows 3.1.

I hear this ignorant statement all the time.. 'If you are so great, why are you using Ubuntu!'.. If you had any knowledge of Linux, would would understand that the same kernal is unde the hood, therefore it matters not what distro you are using.. Nice try but. Redmond will be proud of you.

90% of the people you speak of are not a server target market you fool.

Stop de-railing the post you fuckin troll.

[quote user="Nikolas"]I see you are under the table..

[/quote]I'm in bed actually :)

[quote]Why am I using Ubuntu? Because I like it.

No, I use Ubuntu because I like the theme that comes with it,

[/quote]so if you want a new theme you install another distro?

[quote]where as other distros, such as Debian, resemble the look of Windows 3.1.

[/quote]Debian looks however you want it to look. As I said, if you can't configure it, use Ubuntu.

[quote]I hear this ignorant statement all the time.. 'If you are so great, why are you using Ubuntu!'..

[/quote]Maybe you should stop telling people how great you are, that's probably why people respond to you in such a fashion.

[quote]If you had any knowledge of Linux, would would understand that the same kernal is unde the hood, therefore it matters not what distro you are using..

[/quote]If you had any knowledge of linux you would recognize the idiocy of that statement.

[quote]Nice try but. Redmond will be proud of you.

[/quote]Not sure why they would be, I recommend linux over Windows any day.

[quote]90% of the people you speak of are not a server target market you fool.

[/quote]I thought you were ranting about the optional html renderer in a mail CLIENT. What has that got to do with 'a server target market'.

[quote]Stop de-railing the post

[/quote]A thread can be derailed, a post cannot.

[quote]you fuckin troll.  ********* You are reminded of the Terms And Conditions for being allowed to post on this Community Site *******

"Debian looks however you want it to look. As I said, if you can't configure it, use Ubuntu."

True, but why bother when Ubuntu has already got it installed by default?

"Maybe you should stop telling people how great you are, that's probably why people respond to you in such a fashion."

I haven't stated 'I am so great' anywhere on this forum.. so this just tells me you suffer an inferiority complex.

"If you had any knowledge of linux you would recognize the idiocy of that statement."

Really? Why is that?

"I thought you were ranting about the optional html renderer in a mail CLIENT. What has that got to do with 'a server target market'."

The subject still is MERCURY/PMAIL, but your post failed to mention them, instead, floated around the fact that you spend your Saturday nights in bed analyzing peoples edited posts on an internet forums. Also, like I stated: I believe where there is PMAIL there is MERCURY, hence why I am discussing both of them.